The Meet Hope Podcast
The Meet Hope Podcast
128: God Writes a Better Story with Pastor James & Pastor Jeff
What does it mean to actively wait in a season of transition or when we find ourselves in the wilderness with God?
On this special episode, Pastor Jeff and Pastor James join Communications Director Ashley Black to discuss the significant leadership transition at Hope Church, reflecting on the nature of transition as "when what is is becoming what was and what's next is becoming what is."
They offer encouragement to anyone going through a major transition in their own lives with the gentle reminder that "God isn't in a hurry, so you don't need to be either."
Thanks for being a part of the HOPE community as we continue conversations about faith and hope! You can learn more at meethope.org or find us on socials @meethopechurch. Join in for worship on Sundays at meethope.online.church! Have a question? Contact us at podcast@meethope.org.
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Welcome to the Meet Hope podcast, where we have conversations about faith and hope. Hope is one church made of people living out their faith through two expressions in person and online. We believe a hybrid faith experience can lead to a growing influence in our community and our world for the sake of others. Welcome to Hope our world for the sake of others.
Speaker 2:Welcome to Hope. Hi everyone, welcome to the Meet Hope podcast. My name is Ashley Black and I'm happy to be here with you, and also today I'm here with Pastor Jeff and Pastor James.
Speaker 4:Hi guys.
Speaker 2:Hey, how are you doing today?
Speaker 3:Doing great Ashley.
Speaker 4:Yeah, had a great Father's Day, a lot of food in me. So I feel good, oh good, that's awesome, that's Day A lot of food in me, so I feel good, that's awesome, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:So we are here today to talk about transition. It is the theme of the entire month. It's been the theme for a long time, but it's become a bigger theme this month. Jeff, it's what your preaching series is on.
Speaker 3:It's like it's my whole life.
Speaker 2:Rightly so, I'm sure it does, or at least so I'm sure it does. I know there's lots of moving pieces like physical office moving pieces and emotional, spiritual moving pieces, and so I thought we would talk about some of that. Let's start by talking about transition. We thought we'd talk about just like the general topic of transition. For anybody that maybe just even the word transition is like uh, not sure about that word. So when you guys both think of transition just as a general theme, what would you say comes to mind?
Speaker 3:The definition I've come up just for myself is a transition is when what is is becoming what was and what's next is becoming what is. So it's that time in between the now and that which is to come, and so one is waning and the other is just beginning. So it is that strange in between time.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I love that. I love the teaching series we are in the midst of it right now, jeff and love that definition that you came up with with transition, because change and transition are very similar, but there is this difference to it as well.
Speaker 4:Right, when I think of transition, I think of the Exodus story of the Israelites going from Egypt to the Promised Land, and there is this time in the wilderness that is chaotic. You used the word chaos in what you're teaching. I love that, but it's a very intentional time too, the 40 years. It must have felt like forever, but a lot happens during those 40 years to prepare the people for the promised land. I think of transition as not just the change of our external circumstances, but also there's an internal formation that happens during transition. So I think of that wilderness image especially. That Exodus story really helps capture transition well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean, I think the process of transition is what's so significant, and so there is this time period, and it could be as long as 40 years. Thankfully, it's not going to be our situation here, but the transition we're in right now for me is a couple of years old, and likewise, I guess, for you.
Speaker 3:James. Yeah, it's this movement from the thing I'm doing right now, the person I am right now, the place I'm in right now, to where God's calling me next, and he's doing this work in us and around us to prepare us as individuals and, in our case, as a community of faith for that thing that's coming.
Speaker 2:What are some of the common fears or misunderstandings you think people might have about a time of transition?
Speaker 3:It's the unknown. I guess, ultimately, that even when I know or I think I know what's next, you know. So for me it's retirement, for you, james, it's. You're taking on this new role I know what it is, but I don't know what it is.
Speaker 3:And so the questions that that raises in me is so, where is this going to take me and who am I going to be now in this new reality and do I have what it takes to live into that? It takes to live into that and, and so those questions, um, can be anxiety producing Um and uh, and that unknown uh can be, can be scary, um, but it's also, you know, for the other side of that is it's also an adventure, right? So I don't know the answer to those things and I'm looking forward to finding that out and living into that. So I guess that's how I think about that, yeah.
Speaker 4:When I think of common misunderstandings, especially in the midst of transition, is oftentimes we have a negative connotation for when things are uncertain or seemingly not stable, and sometimes we equate stability with health. But I think about the Israelites when they complained to Moses about how, back in Egypt, we got to eat all kinds of food, all kinds of meat and fruits. It was great there. Why did you have to take us out of Egypt? I mean sure, the whole slavery thing. But Right, right, right, like no stability. Quote unquote stability in Egypt was slavery right, and so that's so interesting.
Speaker 4:So that might be one misunderstanding. Yeah, in transition, things are going to be a bit disorienting. Things are going to be different. A bit disorienting, things are going to be different. Avoid the word chaos. But even chaos God created the universe in, with the spirit hovering over the chaos in Genesis, one like there's there's beauty in the uncertainty, and new things do arise from that.
Speaker 4:And so you know, when things are a bit, when there's a bit of turbulence, like I think, we have to remember hey, we're in this together, god is with us and God is taking us into something new.
Speaker 2:I love that reminder that as you were talking, James, I was reminded of the entire story of God is one of mostly transition.
Speaker 2:It is always moving towards something else, even if you just read scripture, right, so I think that's a really lovely reminder. You just read scripture, right, like, so I think that's really a really lovely reminder. So, when we talk about this particular transition, what and this is something you both have been working around together for a while now, and we've talked about it on the podcast before but what would you say? This current transition has taught each of you so far, because it's still ongoing, and I'm sure your answer was different six months ago and it's probably going to be different six months from now. But where you are today, what would you say?
Speaker 4:Jeff, we've been talking about this from a long time ago. We've both been learning about active waiting. That has been a homework that both of us were not too fond of. We were hoping that this would have happened sooner. We're like God. Why is this taking so long? But in the waiting, god has been teaching us active waiting, indeed, and also just the wisdom After the fact we go oh yeah, god knew what he was doing. After the fact we go oh yeah, god knew what he was doing. And there were so many things that I realized a year ago I was not ready. There was so much that happened in the past year to prepare me further for this transition and so I thought I was ready. But looking back at a year ago, I go oh yeah, I was not ready then.
Speaker 3:Yeah, interesting. Well, it's funny. Marilyn has said to me over that year that the church wasn't ready. In some ways, I wasn't ready either, and she's very wise and so I believe her. Yeah, you know, god always writes a better story, and so what I thought was the best way, I'm now convinced no, this is the better story, and that's exciting too right that this whole journey for me this 35-year and for me it's really more like 37-year journey is seeing that play out, that God writes a better story and that when I trust him and do the act of waiting and take the next step and do the courageous thing in faith that God is there, god shows up in ways that I could not have envisioned until I took that step. And so that's just a lesson that I learn over and over and experience over and over again.
Speaker 3:And here it is again the thing that we see throughout scripture. And here it is again. Yeah, the thing that we see throughout scripture, right, is always looking back and remembering what God has done. Yeah, right, it's always looking back and saying, remember when or remember how God was at work in that time and in that place, and I guess that, in a lot of ways, that is what the role is going to be, and then staying out of the way a lot.
Speaker 2:I think that's a really such a gift that you just shared, jeff, that when I was thinking about when we're in the thick of a transition and James you mentioned it can feel like chaos, but that's not always a bad thing, but it can feel like really intense, like we can only see what's right in front of us, and to have that like someone who is almost like a historian saying, yeah, but look, god did this over here before and remember that time we've this felt really intense.
Speaker 3:God took us here and so yeah, we were talking before we started recording this about how this role looks and how to talk about it, and I've been struggling for words and images and so forth and trying to be really careful about saying what it's not. So I'm not going to be the pastor. The image, james, that you were just sharing about it's sort of like the grandfather. Yeah, yeah, right, right. So I'm not a grandfather. I don't have that firsthand experience at this point, but I know a lot of granddads. A lot of my friends are grandfathers, and watching them and how they relate to their adult son and then how they relate to their grandchildren is probably a pretty good image. That in the best case scenario, the grandfather is a support and then just hanging out with the grandkids and just enjoying being in their midst, and so there's there's probably in that, in that description, some idea of what, what I guess, this role of founding pastor will look like.
Speaker 4:And I also want to just name how grateful I am that you agreed to take on this role. This is something that I asked you if you'd be interested in and ask the lead team, because it's not very common. I know a lot of churches that don't do this Actually, most churches do not do this but I think the story that God has written for Hope was very special. You're the founding pastor. You planted this church 35 years ago. You know this church better than anyone, and to have you as a sounding board and again to be that grandfather figure of the church would be a blessing for us, right? I know my parents love to spoil my kids. Sometimes I tell them to stop.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right.
Speaker 4:They had enough sugar. Right, but right. But at the same time there's so much wisdom. I love being able to talk to my mom and my dad when I do hit a roadblock, like, hey, what are some ideas here? Help me out. But ultimately they also allow me to lead my family and serve my family. So I think that image you know metaphor is perfect. But I thought that image best encapsulates what founding pastor might look like. What do you think, jeff?
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I think that's it's new and so I'm kicking around and that guess, that means Marilyn's grandma.
Speaker 4:And it's not mine, by the way. I don't remember exactly where it was, but, jeff, you and I have been—a lot of large churches have been going through transitions this year, so we've just been sharing news, articles, videos and whenever we see another transition happening, and it was from one of these videos that this pastor described himself as I'm not going anywhere but I'm going to be like a granddad, you have a new lead pastor. He's going to be great, but I'll be around with some candy in my pocket.
Speaker 2:Causing a little trouble. And really you know, causing good trouble, causing a little bit of good trouble.
Speaker 3:God's timing in all of this.
Speaker 3:You know, just back to that idea that you know you being ready now, more than you were a year ago.
Speaker 3:And likewise for me I am ready to transition out of the role of lead pastor. I am not leaving feeling like I didn't accomplish what I wanted to or that there was more I wanted to do. I really feel like this is the right time and so it's not difficult for me to move out of this role and I'm excited for you and where this is going to take this church, where you're going to take this church, where God is going to be leading, and to have the joy and the privilege of kind of being in the community as it's unfolding is a tremendous blessing and a gift and I just want to be like a part of the congregation. I just, you know, I just am looking forward to being in that position of you know, cheering it on, and if there's anything I'm asked to do to support it to, you know to certainly do that and but I don't really need to be in any kind of leadership role, I'm certainly do that and uh, but I don't really need to to uh, be in any kind of leadership role.
Speaker 2:I'm I'm good with that, uh which I I can say as a staff member. Jeff, you know you shared that with us recently at a meeting and you said, like guys, I'm good, I'm ready. And hearing someone in leadership who was leading, you say that like is very um. Hearing someone in leadership who was leading you say that like is very um, like settled, like grounding, like to be like okay, cool, he's good, so we can be good, so we can be good for the next thing, like um. So I just appreciate your kind of openness in in sharing those things. Um. Are there any more practical things that we should be sharing with people who are listening, such as will you have an office? You know all that kind of little stuff that maybe someone's listening on a Sunday. They've heard, but if they're only listening to the podcast, they haven't heard. I just don't know if there's anything like that that we should clear up for anybody.
Speaker 3:Well, I won't have an office. Carol has agreed to allow me to share a cubicle, graciously agreed. Agreed, I'll have a home office, of course, and those times that I'm in the building, you know, there's generally a room I can grab if I'm meeting with somebody.
Speaker 4:Yeah, one thing that comes to mind is a lot of people are asking about staff changes specifically.
Speaker 1:Like is.
Speaker 4:Carol still going to be around.
Speaker 1:That's a good question.
Speaker 2:I asked her.
Speaker 4:She said she wants to stay. I said thank God. We all were like is Carol still going to be around? That's a good question. I asked her. She said she wants to stay. I said thank God.
Speaker 2:We all were like yay.
Speaker 3:Just leaving, no problem.
Speaker 2:Carol. That would be a problem I was joking with. We were teasing Rick that Carol ran out to get Aaron's full disclosure. She's still very much here. But we were looking for her and Dave went oh yeah, james is starting and. But we were looking for her and Dave went oh yeah, james is starting, and so she's going to be done and we were like just kidding, Just kidding, oh gosh, Please no. I think I said please stay.
Speaker 4:I think that's what I said to her, but I'm very excited and she's excited, she's, yeah, I'm very excited to be, working with her too.
Speaker 2:One important one that comes to mind as the communications person here is contacting you, james right. So, as lead pastor, your email will be, or it exists.
Speaker 4:It's working now, james, at meet hopeorg. Great yeah, send me an email, let me know. Say hi.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Flood the inbox.
Speaker 2:There you go yeah.
Speaker 3:And mine is founder at your eminence. Nobody can spell it still, jeff great.
Speaker 2:well, as we start to wrap up, I was wondering in moments like this I like to refer them as kind of like hinge moments, so it's like the in between space between one thing and another thing what would you say helps you stay grounded or stay rooted? Is there any like scripture you return to or any practices that have kept you? James, you said earlier, like stability is not always what we need, but kind of steady in a shifting moment, what we need, but?
Speaker 4:kind of steady in a shifting moment. I still remember how talking with you, Jeff, even with Rick and Heather like why is this taking so long? Was a phrase we would say often. But one thing that I've learned is that God is not in a hurry, even if we feel like we should be, and so we can trust that God is writing something, the right story, and so not to try to skip the wilderness, because I think that is where we meet God, that is the meeting place where we see God often. So take your time. God knows what he's doing. God's not in a hurry, so you don't have to be either.
Speaker 3:And the scripture that just recently came to me and I shared it in a message recently Isaiah 40, 31, those who wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength. They'll mount up on wings like eagles, They'll run and not grow weary. They'll walk and not faint. And so that act of waiting again it's renewing that God is not just letting us languish somewhere, that, as we're trusting him, he's renewing us, he's strengthening us and preparing us for that which is to come. So, yeah, that's what this season represents, I think, for us.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:It's a season of renewal. I love that.
Speaker 2:And you kind of both already answered this question in your answers. But is there any other encouragement you would offer to someone in their own season of change in their life?
Speaker 4:I would say, listen to the this sermon series at meet hopeorg.
Speaker 2:Meet hopeorg slash on demand or YouTube at meet hope church, because I think pastor Jeff is has a tremendous teaching this month.
Speaker 4:So even this past Sunday was Julie and I are still talking about it, so I think the teaching is something that I think would really help equip anyone going through a transition.
Speaker 3:That's very kind. Yeah, I mean, don't miss this.
Speaker 3:The other thing that there was a time, even in this most recent transition so I'm a work in progress still so it's not that I've arrived on this active waiting and trusting God in the in-between time. So there was a point where it was clear that the timing that I wanted for you to come, james, was not to be, and I was feeling discouraged. And we were in a lead team meeting and members of the team began to speak into that and say you know that same thing We've seen God in the past and that our timing hasn't always been the right timing. And so let's trust God now with this timing. And so I would say that as well, that God has not abandoned you, that God is with you and for you, that this time is valuable, and so don't miss it. That this time is valuable and so don't miss it, don't miss out on the lessons that God wants to teach you and the things that God is doing in you in this season of transition.
Speaker 4:Yeah, Like the chaos is not punishment but the chaos is sacred yeah. God is there, and God is going to lead you through it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And you'll look back on that and thank God for it. Exactly.
Speaker 2:I love that. So thank you everyone everyone for listening today and thank you to pastor Jeff and pastor James for being here and doing this conversation with us. We're excited for pastor James, for you to officially start as lead pastor on July 1st and there's going to be lots of opportunities to meet you. So we have meet and greets that are listed on our events calendar all through in July and August. They're all on Wednesday evenings and they're all informal. They're all in person except there. Ask that you RSVP so we can make sure we have enough refreshments for everyone that's there and it's meant to be informal and fun and a way to get to know Pastor James and hang out together. And please share this podcast with someone you know who is in the Hope community, who you think might benefit from hearing about it, or also someone you know who's just going through a transition and maybe they can be encouraged by the words of Pastor Jeff and Pastor James today.
Speaker 1:So thank you for listening and we will see you next time. If you don't already, please join us for worship on Sundays or on demand. You can learn more at meethopeorg or find us on socials at meethopechurch.