The Meet Hope Podcast
The Meet Hope Podcast
127: What Makes a Church Grow? Lessons from Hope's Journey with Pastor Jeff Bills
As Pastor Jeff prepares to transition out of the role of Lead Pastor of HOPE at the end of June, we're speaking with him today about a few things he's learned along the way, specifically what makes a church well-positioned for growth. Take a listen!
NOTES:
- Quote from episode:
- "Don’t even entertain the idea of separating yourself from your brothers and sisters, whether or not they agree with your opinions. Don’t assume someone is wrong or sinful just because they don’t believe what you do or don’t accept your perspective. That kind of thinking leads to division; every time we act that way, we teach others to do the same against us." - John Wesley
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Welcome to the Meet Hope podcast, where we have conversations about faith and hope. Hope is one church made of people living out their faith through two expressions in person and online. We believe a hybrid faith experience can lead to a growing influence in our community and our world for the sake of others. Welcome to Hope.
Speaker 2:Hey, welcome everyone to today's Hope Church podcast. I'm here with Pastor Jeff Hi Jeff.
Speaker 3:Rick, how you doing.
Speaker 2:And also here with Bodie and Ashley. Hi, ashley, and Bodie is comfortably sleeping right now so you may hear him shake later in the episode. Today we're going to pull back the curtain a little bit and by now you have heard the news that Pastor James Lee was recently appointed as the new lead pastor, beginning July 1st, and Pastor Jeff will transition into the new role, continuing to support Hope, but in ways that reflect this next season for us as a church. So today we're going to take a few moments and reflect on where we've been, what makes a church grow and part of the culture of this place. And so, jeff, thanks for sitting down with me today, absolutely Looking forward to this conversation. Yeah, I think it'll be a good time, and so let's start with a little bit of context.
Speaker 2:Probably everybody all of our listeners know that we're part of the United Methodist Church, and there are some current realities that you and I have been talking about and looking at for years. We've known these things about the United Methodist Church. For instance, the average worship size for a United Methodist Church in America is about 48 people. That's average worship attendance on a Sunday 48 people people that's average worship attendance on a Sunday 48 people. In fact, about 70% of the 29,000 United Methodist churches in the United States have fewer than 100 people in worship each week. So it's a small church denomination. And even here in New Jersey about 70% of the churches have under 85 people attending weekly. So it's a sobering truth, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's Wild to think about, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, at the same time, there are some large United Methodist churches out there as well. There's standout churches like Church of the Resurrection in Kansas. You and I had the opportunity to go there. It's a great church, it's pretty exciting and they have 24,000 members, so they're the largest Methodist church in our country. And then there's Highland Park United Methodist Church in Dallas. That has over 4,000 in worship. But large churches like that in our country are the exception, those thousand megachurch churches in the United Methodist Church but we do have some of those. But most United Methodist churches are small communities and so it's important to realize that a church like Hope and the reason we wanted to have this conversation is that Hope operates in a very different space with different challenges and opportunities we are the largest, or one of the largest churches in the New England area.
Speaker 3:Correct, northeast jurisdiction is the way we talk about it in the Methodist church. So yeah, up at the whole Eastern seaboard. Basically we'd be Last. I recall we were in the top 10, and that goes back 10 years ago. So I suspect we're.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I tried to find more recent data and I couldn't, so let's go with that that we're at least in the top 10 of largest churches in the Northeastern jurisdiction. Yeah, yeah, so let's talk about Hope, pastor Jeff. Largest in New Jersey. What's that?
Speaker 3:We're the largest in New Jersey.
Speaker 2:Yes, and the largest in New Jersey. So we've been reflecting recently on why hope grew into a large church and what are some of the key things that you've seen. What makes hope grow?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, as I've been thinking, and you and I have been talking about this and talking with some others, it goes back to the very beginning when God called me to start a church. So it was going to be a church for people who don't go to church, because we weren't looking to take people out of existing churches. We wanted to invite people who aren't currently going to church, and to do that we did a phone campaign, something you could never do today, but you could do in 1990. So we made 20,000 phone calls and when you think about it, all we knew was an address and name you know so the Jones family and a phone number, and so we were just actively inviting everybody to come. And it's what Rick, you and I talk about is fishing with a net, right. So we're just trying to draw people in.
Speaker 3:When you start a church like that, you're starting by inviting everybody. You don't care who they are, what their background, you're just inviting them, and when they arrive you need to welcome them, and so that culture of welcome has been developed from those early days and there's a level of acceptance, right. So somebody's going to come in. They may have no church background, no faith background, but they're curious. They're interested, which is why they've shown up, and so just accepting people where they are in their own spiritual life at any given time became a part of the culture as well, and so I think that that expansive invitation, welcome and acceptance has really become the culture of Hope Church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it started out as a compelling vision and it became the church's culture. Indeed, we started. The people here started to embody it and it became who they were.
Speaker 3:Yeah, or who we are right. People felt comfortable inviting a friend who may not have a faith or may have issues with the faith, because they know that they'll be treated well here. And so, again, we want people to take a next step. We want them to grow in their faith and develop their faith. So that's part of it as well to take a next step. We want them to grow in their faith and develop their faith. So that's part of it as well. But that's between them and the Holy Spirit, the pace of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so let's get practical now. What are a few of those elements that have shaped hope that you've noticed over the last several decades?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so the first one that came to mind was what I would call participation. So, from the very beginning again, all of this, you know, is started in the early years, back in our school days, and as it has, as we've grown, you know that's remained. So what I am calling participation, that we've asked people to participate and created opportunities for people to participate, whether it's the most basic kinds of ways, you know the the most basic kinds of ways, um so, uh, set up teams. Back in, right back in our school days, rick, the same thing was going on in Mount Laurel, right? So you had teams that would show up, meet a trailer, you know, unload everything, set the whole thing up. We were doing that for nine years, uh, before we had a building.
Speaker 3:Um so it was an easy way for somebody to participate and we want them to identify their gifts, so their participation makes sense with how God has wired them up to serve. So teachers are teaching and leaders are leading, and caregivers are doing that and encouragers are doing that, and so we just want everybody to be a part, be an active part, roll up their sleeves, so to speak, and be a part of this thing. And so when you have a lot of people participating, that just creates an environment for growth, right?
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:So one of the things you hear about smaller churches is it's the same people who have to do everything and they feel dumped on and they feel burned out and so forth, and so we never want that. We want people to participate. Because they want to participate, we want them to be valued when they participate, and really that's where staff comes in, right, Right?
Speaker 2:yeah, we want people to get involved, not just attend, and invest their time and energy and all those kinds of things, and that when more people are involved there's a less chance for the church to become stagnant, those kinds of things. So yeah, so we've leaned, so our staff roles lean into this idea, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so the staff are there not to do the ministry, but to equip and resource people for ministry, to provide leadership for folks so that they are able to then do the thing.
Speaker 2:So one of the ones that's been really cool. We just did a podcast recently on third Tuesday, so you've got a it ran. It ran as well as if I had been there, and probably better because I wasn't there. Yeah, because people were, they were, they knew, they were this, they're responsible, they're leading it.
Speaker 3:And I was there for that one and thought, okay, I'm going to have a role here where I'm going to have to step in for Rick. Nope, I was getting in the way actually.
Speaker 2:Right, and that's what sometimes I realize is best for me just to step back, because I'm going to get in the way. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Isn't that great yeah.
Speaker 2:I love when the church functions like that. It's fantastic. Yeah, so staff lead and the people build is the way I've noticed that's a great way to put it. So, yes, so that leads to the next piece is not only is a participation and training and equipping volunteers, but it's also cooperation and unity. Yeah, you put those things together. Why don't you talk about that a little bit?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so we often talk about leadership. Right, I talk a lot about it. I think leadership is absolutely essential. But if you have really great leaders but nobody is cooperating with that leader, nobody is unified around the vision that that leader is, casting and so forth.
Speaker 3:It doesn't matter how great the leader is, it's not going to go anywhere. So this church has a long history of what we're calling cooperation or unity, that people are on board with what we're trying to do, with the vision here, and then we're cooperatively together. Together, and there's a lot of putting ego aside and my own agenda and so forth in order to have this unified approach to doing ministry. And I was thinking about this and remembering a time where I saw that, oh, this is becoming a part of our culture now. There was a couple that came to the church again.
Speaker 3:This was back in our high school days long history of attending churches and so forth and ways of doing things, and they weren't thrilled with all that they were seeing in this church and they did what I guess they always did, which they began to kind of complain about what they were seeing to people in the congregation, in the lobby and so forth and having private meetings. And fairly early on, people who were hearing from this couple came and talked to me and said hey, just so you're aware, so-and-so is not happy about what's going on here. And so I sat down with them and we had a conversation and it started with. That's not the way we do things. So what you're doing is really destructive to the unity, to the kind of cooperative feel that we have here.
Speaker 3:So it's fine that you disagree with things. You really needed to come and talk to me first, and so over time we worked through that and that couple became very committed and were here for decades.
Speaker 2:That's a great story, yeah.
Speaker 3:But that's an intentional part of our culture, that you don't have to agree with everything your disappointments or disapprovals or whatever but to do it in the right way to the right people is an essential thing. When you've got cooperation like that, when people are working together toward a common goal, toward a common vision, it's powerful, right, yeah yeah, oh, it's rare and it's powerful, right, yeah, yeah, oh, it's rare and it's rare, yeah, and it is a gift.
Speaker 2:It's a gift to the church. Right that we don't use disagreements as an excuse to disrupt or divide. Right that we can be committed to the mission together.
Speaker 3:Absolutely, absolutely. And you know, this is such an important thing to us that in our principles of community we have a principle that says the Lord loves unity. Yeah, and it's the very first principle. Oh yeah, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, not that they're ranked, but yeah, we did put it as the first one and that comes right out of John's gospel, where Jesus prays for unity for his church on earth, for his church on earth, and as Methodist Wesleyans, john Wesley was very committed to this idea of unity and came across a quote yeah, yeah, let me read that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so this is John Wesley. He said Don't even entertain the idea of separating yourself from your brothers and sisters, whether or not they agree with your opinions. Don't assume someone is wrong or sinful just because they don't believe what you do or don't accept your perspective. That kind of thinking leads to division. Every time we act that way, we teach others to do the same against us. I mean, that really sounds like a spiritual posture, doesn't it? It's not just a leadership one.
Speaker 3:It's really about how are you, what's your attitude, how are you being most like Jesus, right, yeah, and again, that's a decision that each individual in the church makes, that they're going to behave in affirming ways in cooperative ways.
Speaker 3:Again, when you have people doing that broadly, it creates a culture and environment that when you're new coming in you feel it. People talk about the feel of this place that they find infectious early on, even though they don't fully understand all that's going on there. So it's the spirit of unity and cooperation that's part of that feel.
Speaker 2:And we've had to be intentional about that, we've had to model it, we've had to name it and we've had to protect it.
Speaker 3:And we model it as a staff, our lead team, the way that we do business, and so it's across the whole church that this is a reality. And again, so why is Hope a larger church? This cooperation piece is an important part of it, Absolutely yeah.
Speaker 2:And then what else stands out? I think there's at least one more that you and I have talked about that this church has consistently made bold decisions. Right, and you're calling that Courage, Courage, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, in fact, just on an aside, when we're considering somebody on staff, there's four things that we say we're looking for.
Speaker 3:Character right, Chemistry competence. And then I remember, Rick, you and I having conversations years ago about adding this fourth one, and it's courage. Courage, right, yeah. And so the idea of courage is, as you read the Bible, God calls people to do things that they would not probably normally do, like building an ark, or going to Pharaoh to say, let my people go. Or to proclaim the resurrection of Christ to a skeptical, violent opposition, or leave your nets and follow me right.
Speaker 3:All of that right. It's always these courageous decisions, because it's the Lord saying trust me, right, so you may not have it all figured out, you may not have it all together, trust me and you'll see me as you're going along the way. And that's what. Again, I have the joy and the experience of the whole run of this church and seeing, from the very beginning, this church making courageous decisions, not foolishly, thoughtfully and so forth, but always it's a step of faith, it takes faith and it takes courage to make these steps.
Speaker 3:So the very first one happened when we bought the parsonage right. So the church was six months old, we had no members, we had no giving history other than six months. And they're going to buy this house. And I remember the meeting. It was a churchwide meeting, we had to vote on it and it was people were wrestling with that big decision and ultimately made a courageous decision, decision so that's back in the 1991. And time after time after time, the church has chosen to take these steps of faith, these courageous steps of faith, and I think God honors that, God blesses that and it creates again an environment of oh, this is a dynamic place, this is a place that really lives into their faith. And it's not just again, it's not making bet the farm, wild-eyed choices all over the place.
Speaker 2:And also you have mentioned that. But also it's always been about making room for more people, a hundred percent. All those courageous decisions were never self-serving. They're always about how can we make room for more, whether it was physically or spiritually or relationally, how can we bring more people here, or budget limitations. We didn't allow that to be the determining factor, even though without God, that might be well, that might be what we should do, but it was always, you know, I said it was prayerful, it was thoughtful, but yet it also was courageous. So listen. So if you're folks, if you're listening today, whether you're part of Hope or you're just curious and someone invited you to listen to this podcast, thanks for doing that. And, jeff, what's a takeaway? What's one thing you say for everybody, like, hey, here's, they've listened, they've been listening for this 20 minutes and what's a takeaway for them?
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, it's a large church, but it's about individuals, right? So every individual matters to God. Every individual is deeply, desperately loved by the Lord. He gave his life for each of us, and so you matter to this place, and, whether you're brand new, you've been coming for a week or you've been here for 35 years, you're an important part of this place, and so I'm grateful for your participation. I'm grateful for the ways that you live into cooperation, that the courage that you have, the faith that you have, which allows us to make courageous decisions. All of that comes down to each individual.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 3:And so I'm grateful for each one of the people here and God is is doing in this place. So we've done this thing, where we ended podcasts early on with the question what are you hopeful about? Yes, yeah, and it's that. It's. It's the culture that was established in the early years is deep in the DNA of this place, and that individuals choose to embody it, which allows us to be an influence in this area for the kingdom of God.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. So yeah, as you said, the real goal is to create a culture where people follow Jesus right and they serve one another, and that size is a byproduct of, not a goal, as it has Jesus right and they serve one another and that size is a byproduct of, not a goal.
Speaker 3:Yeah Right, yeah, yeah. Large isn't better, it's different. We need to recognize the ways that it's different, yes, and be faithful in the ways that we're called to serve.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So, pastor, jeff, thanks for your leadership and this conversation. Yeah, it was great, rick, yeah, yeah, and so that's it, bodhi enjoyed it too, and Bodhi did. Yeah, he was awake for just a moment. Hey, that's it for today's episode, and if you found this conversation meaningful, I'd love if you'd share it with someone and, as always, we're grateful for you as our listeners, so have a great day our listeners, so have a great day.