The Meet Hope Podcast
The Meet Hope Podcast
101: What is God's Invitation to You? Stories of Faith and Why the Church Makes a Difference in Our Lives
This week on the podcast, Ashley chats with ministry leaders Andrew Barber and Jason Shinn as they share their unique paths into church ministry. We also talk about how everyday interactions can be powerful avenues for meaningful connections and what it means to be "church in the margins." We celebrate the small, everyday moments where faith and action intersect, encouraging you to listen and be present, not only within church walls but in the rhythm of everyday life.
NOTES & RESOURCES:
- Contact us: Jason@meethope.org, Andrew@meethope.org, Ashley@meethope.org
Thanks for being a part of the HOPE community as we continue conversations about faith and hope! You can learn more at meethope.org or find us on socials @meethopechurch. Join in for worship on Sundays at meethope.live! Have a question? Contact us at podcast@meethope.org.
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Welcome to the Meet Hope Podcast, where we have conversations about faith and hope. Hope is one church made of people living out their faith through two expressions in person and online. We believe a hybrid faith experience can lead to a growing influence in our community and our world for the sake of others. Welcome to Hope.
Speaker 2:Hi everyone, welcome to the Meet Hope podcast. My name is Ashley Black and I'm excited to be your host today. Today, I'm here with two of my co-workers, andrew and Jason. Hey guys.
Speaker 3:Hey, how's it going.
Speaker 2:Good, how are you guys doing? We're good, pretty good, yeah I admittedly for our, our listeners don't have a full voice yet. You know, I have a little kid it gets cold and so I get them, so you have to forgive me, but anyway. Um, so we're here today, uh, to have a conversation about why the church right why the church?
Speaker 3:church right now, why the church and why we in church?
Speaker 2:yes, yeah, yeah, that's the general idea. We were kind of having a conversation. I said this might be a great podcast conversation. I'm agreed. Especially for the two of you who are our newest ministry leaders.
Speaker 4:I think I have that correct.
Speaker 2:That seems accurate so remind me how long each of you have been on staff.
Speaker 3:It's been a little over three years for me, I think like two and a half for me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so before we kind of jump into this conversation then I thought it'd be also a nice opportunity for everybody to kind of hear more of both of your backstories, like when you we did staff interviews, but those were kind of more like a little bit more surface level to have everybody get to know every staff member and there were like questions that every staff member answered. But there are definitely things that I think are more unique to both of your stories and so could you give us, could you each give us, a little background? We all know we all work all of us here work at a church. But like how, what brought you to doing church work?
Speaker 4:Are you talking with Hope specifically?
Speaker 2:I think I'm thinking even like in more of a global way, like what is it about the church that you're like? This is the work I want to do. I don't want to just be a part of a church, but I want to work in a church.
Speaker 3:I was always really involved. I know you were too, because you're a pastor's kid, but mine was a little bit different than that, when I was 11 years old, did not really grow up going to church we would go to church on Saturday nights. Really grow up going to church. We would go to church on Saturday nights. There was like a Saturday night service and I was always really fascinated by the musical aspect of it. I really loved that.
Speaker 3:And then confirmation class comes and my parents are like you do confirmation class, that's a must and that was like my entry point into the world of church and for me it really was always about this community feels different special deeper than a lot of the other communities I was a part of and I was even at a young age, at the age of 11, I think I noticed that I can say that my three best friends through high school went to my church and we're all in different school districts, but there was this deep bond that we had and I think for me church work was always this gravitation towards a community of believers, like my friends were, that felt like we were called to something greater and it stuck.
Speaker 2:It's interesting to me, like I had similar experiences around the same age, that that that was the time where and I I know like right, so jason knows this too from doing youth ministry right that's like the time. That's the age where you start to like want to know, like, do people see me?
Speaker 1:am I known?
Speaker 2:do people notice me? Am I cared for? Like you, start seeking that kind of experience and I know for me like I had that experience in in a church setting too of like, oh, I feel like people care about me here and something about it really stuck. Yeah, what about you?
Speaker 4:I think I'm a little different because I was kind of born into the church world.
Speaker 4:This is kind of my lived experience my entire life, and so I was actually running away from the church, trying to get away as far away from church world, Cause I had kind of seen behind the scenes where my dad worked and stuff like that. Uh. But it was being drawn into youth ministry as a volunteer that I built lifelong friendships with other volunteers and but I think there's something, there's something to be said for that sense that there's greater purpose, and so uh for that sense that there's greater purpose, and so I really, truly understood the life-changing aspect of the gospel when I started working with people and serving people and started seeing life change.
Speaker 4:And you just don't get that same thing working retail Not that there's anything wrong. I've done that too, but I just fell in love with the church from a different perspective. But it took me running away for a little bit and then coming back.
Speaker 2:I think that's a really interesting something I decided while we're talking is all three of us have not only worked in church. So we have all come like. I think I think that's correct, right, is that true for you, andrew? Right, so you, I definitely a lot of it was church.
Speaker 3:My younger it was definitely church. But I did take a break because I did a little bit of running away too, where I got hugely burnt out in my mid-20s and then I worked in retail for a year or two, two years. So yeah, I think there was all. But yeah, I had that same running away feeling, but I think I always knew that this is where I was called to.
Speaker 2:I thought it was. So I was annoyed by it too, to call. But I understand that. I used to joke that like I was trying to do it in every other place. I used to work as a mental health counselor and I just like knew I wanted to serve people and help them be known and help them know God and feel loved, right and I feel, like I was trying to do that and I was annoyed because I knew I was trying to do it in every other place until I landed in ministry.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I thought I was done with church work until I was actually substitute teaching and I was cleaning out my spam folder, cause that's what you do when you're substitute teach and. I found an email from pastor Heather saying would you be interested in Voorhees New Jersey. Email from Pastor Heather saying would you be interested in Voorhees, new Jersey.
Speaker 3:So I feel like I got picked up on the free agent wire, the waiver wire, the waiver wire.
Speaker 2:I was on the waiver wire which that story to me is still crazy that you I never check my spam email. I mass delete my spam email.
Speaker 4:There is some interesting stuff in there.
Speaker 3:So it is just mind blowing to me that, like you happened to look at your spam and that's how we happened to have the honor of having you on our staff. You know. Now, my question for both of you did you guys have multi and it can be maybe multiple times this aha moment of like, yeah, this is where I'm supposed to be, or this is what I'm supposed to be doing, because I I kind of did, it was so. I talk about it a lot, but I spent two years touring with this music ministry team thing and toured the country and for me, that was sort of when I went, it was just that this was something to do.
Speaker 3:You know, I was graduated high school over a year. I was in school, I was working, kind of rudderless, and this was this thing where, like, I was so quickly thrust into this world and by the end of my first year, there wasn't a moment but it was just sort of all of a sudden, of like, no, this is what it is, this is, this is the only thing, not the only thing that matters, but, like, this is where I'm called to be. Like I never felt such at peace, um, and it wasn't this sort of clouds parting moment, but it was this moment of just like, yeah I, this is where I'm going, this is where I'm headed.
Speaker 4:I definitely was drifting my first two years of college. I graduated high school and I didn't go away to school and I just was at a community college just taking classes, whatever I felt like taking, which of all actually served me really, really well. But I didn't have a direction and it was getting pulled in to volunteer for some pretty high-capacity ministries and having a youth leader, a youth pastor, invest in me and he's like this is what I see in you and these are the giftings that God has given you. And he just started helping me do that. And I think the aha moment was when, all of a sudden, the weird, quirky, introverted nature of how God designed me to be just started to work for me for the first time in my life.
Speaker 4:And it was in youth ministry and I just kind of fell into it and then I went to school for it and yeah, but it took someone seeing something in me and pulling me in. I definitely didn't purposely go into it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, mine is very similar in that someone called it out at me like they.
Speaker 2:They started to notice in me what I was, seemed like I was caring about or how I was investing in, I was volunteering at the time and and uh, someone, it, it, my, I had a very clear aha moment of being in the car with someone and with a friend and and they said I feel like I'm supposed to ask you this question and it feels super weird. And they said I feel like I'm supposed to ask you this question and it feels super weird and, out of the blue, like we can ignore it and move on. But I feel like I have to ask you and the question was have you ever thought about you working in ministry? And my I felt, like my mind like short-circuited, because I knew the answer was yes and I was had was not in a place where I was thinking about it being a yes and I remember just being like not answering and they're like sorry if I freaked you out.
Speaker 2:I was like no, I'm freaking out because the answer is yes and I don't know what that means. Because I had such a like, uh, like scripted, I think picture of what it should be and I didn't know at the time that working for people in a church setting can be such a wide like. There's so many ways that you can serve people in that way, and so there's no, there's no, there's no job like yeah the.
Speaker 4:The amount of variety I have in my life is incredible.
Speaker 3:Going from games to deep moments, to conversations, to just yeah, life-changing moments it's interesting I had a smaller you kind of have you that people that someone asked you to do something. My first church job out of me being on tour was someone that I knew kind of but not really I knew their wife a lot better Just cold emailing me saying, hey, would you want to come and work for me? So I had that moment too, and it's interesting that. So as a church, as a ministry staff, staff leader, my number one job as the worship arts director is not music. It is pouring in and into investing in people people
Speaker 3:yeah, um, if, if you're, if you're working in ministry, if you are, have a role in ministry, the number one importance is who were you pouring into who were you up? And we all have stories of who built into us and now we're kind of pouring into other people and I think that sometimes some people that maybe don't work in church that might be a misconception. I don't sit in my office all day strumming my guitar. That'd be a lot of fun, but that's not what I do. A lot of it is meeting with people who are work with me but, more importantly, that are volunteering with me to sort of build them up into something and greater than that.
Speaker 3:So that's what ministry is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, um yeah, that's for me for sure. That's what it is is is the desire to encourage people and pour into people, and yeah, um, and that's what I was thinking about, like. So we're talking a lot about our, our work in the church. Most of our listeners do, I'm gonna assume, don't work in the church, but what does that? But what is it about the church like? So what is it about the church right now? Why, why are you still working in the church? Why does, why, do you think the church matters for our whole audience of listeners? Um, and I would say, like, based on what you were just saying, like that there are few places where you can find people who desire to pour into you and encourage you, and in a community type way you know, I think for me church has found family family.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that, I love that.
Speaker 4:I love my parents and my sister and my extended family, but church over the years has been a place where I've found family, and family is a place, like you said, where we're encouraging each other, where we push each other to be better, and I think for me we have the. We have the life changing message of Jesus Christ, but we get to do it in a family setting and that's and we all have our little niches in this room and those that are hopefully listening have found their niche here at Hope or at other churches, but it's found family.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I love that.
Speaker 3:We talked. We spent about a year in the worship arts ministry talking about the two most important things in this season was community and collaboration. So creating community, creating that found family and that when you have that familiarity with one another, you can collaborate and create things that you wouldn't be capable of doing before. That relationship, and also on your own, I think. I pray or say often like let's create something better than the sum of our own parts and that's what. I mean, that's what the body of Christ is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was just thinking when you were talking about how, not only is it this place to like, create and collaborate and grow in a community setting, but that also there's also like, obviously because it's a church. There's also like, obviously cause it's a church. There's like the spiritual side of that too, that like at the same time you're like you're, you're exposing yourself to the way so many people interact with God, and just to have this place to know that like it looks a bit different for every single person and what that does like how that can stretch our, our perception of of who Jesus is and and God is um is so good for us, um, versus just operating in our, our own singular.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Understanding.
Speaker 4:Church is kind of a, a sewn mismatched quilt. Yeah, we're all kind of we've all kind of mismatched quilts. We're all kind of we've all kind of mismatched, but we somehow formed together this beautiful quilts, this beautiful archers artistry.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think too, and I I think in my mind this always goes without saying but it's not the. So the church is not the building, it's the people. Like that's what the church is, and I think that like, yes, I think that I think that we do a really good job of talking about that here, but I think that when you hear the word church, even just in the context of this podcast, we're not talking about the building, we're not talking about the place, we're talking about a body of people coming together to do something or a common cause, or a common goal, and that goal is the advancement of the kingdom of God.
Speaker 2:Which is what if you go back to the beginning of churches in scripture? That's what they were right.
Speaker 4:It wasn't about ragtag group of misfits.
Speaker 2:Yeah right, and maybe that's why I'm so drawn to them.
Speaker 3:I'm pretty sure that's the Thunderbolts plot yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's part of the reason why I'm so drawn to this idea is because, if you go back to scripture, that's kind of like the original church. It wasn't about a place, it was about a group of people, and so we talk all the time about how do we be the church? We don't mean how do you? How often are you showing up?
Speaker 4:here, we're talking about yeah, right like we don't take attendance.
Speaker 2:I remember, do you, do you guys ever have attendance when you were in church growing up? I remember, like when I was in maybe like elementary school, where the church we went to there was like an attendance pad that got passed.
Speaker 4:I was the pastor's kid, I was the top of that list and I never missed, like not in Sunday school like in church.
Speaker 3:It was like with the offering, there was a little like you write your name.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, we had something like that, but but that's not the point right.
Speaker 2:The point is like, how do we so? Our desire in working in the church is to help other people be the church out in their world, and so for everybody that's listening who are they're not working in a church every day, how do you envision what does it mean to be the church every day? Like our job is just to equip everybody else, right? Like I think sometimes people look to us as like we're doing, like more, or like we're you know?
Speaker 2:I mean you're doing the work, yeah, and it's like no, I'm, I'm trying, I want to be here so that you can go. Do you know?
Speaker 3:go and make disciples, yeah, yeah I think it's going back to what we were kind of talking about a few minutes ago, about, like we had people who really poured into us that made us partially who we are, and I think it's really important to be mindful about who you're pouring into, not just about I mean about anything about when you're in your job.
Speaker 3:If are you who are the people that you are mentoring or loving on, or people in your neighborhood, people you know. Insert whatever, um, and it's. It doesn't have to be these big, grandiose things, it's simple, just like reminding and calling. We are called to love people, so I think that is a big and relatively simple part of it.
Speaker 4:I think one of the most revolutionary things I've discovered about church work and ministry is that the best stuff in my mind, the best church happens in the margins.
Speaker 4:It's not necessarily in that set Sunday nights from 6 to 7.30, but a lot of times my best church work might be in setting up tables beforehand and I got a kid next to me and we're just talking, or it's on the car ride home, or you catch those conversations at a restaurant or hanging out.
Speaker 4:It's outside the building, it's outside, and so I call it church in the margins, and I guess all of us have opportunities to be church in the margins. So, as you're getting coffee with a friend of yours 15 minutes during your workday, we have this amazing opportunity to be church in the margins, and during your workday, we have this amazing opportunity to be church in the margins. So I feel like that's the best stuff. It's really a lot of the programs we set up here are opportunities for us to connect to each other and to God, but also they fuel us for the church in the margin moments where we can invest in others and hopefully invite them into the kingdom, however that may look like for them, and that's the beauty of having a church of two expressions. So I'm a firm believer in church in the margins.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I really love that. I think that Andrew and I literally were just talking about before we started this about like our world is so busy and so fast and so loud and so crowded. Work of being the church in our everyday lives requires us to pay attention to those like pockets of space where, like, we just want to like, where it would be easier just to disconnect right, like you're setting up a table next to somebody and it's easier just to like do your thing keep my one headphone in and listen to a podcast and not listen to another high school story but it being the church becomes about like a mind shifting your mindset of like this is an opportunity to be present with someone and to use this time in an encouraging way or in an intentional way.
Speaker 2:There's this singer. I really like that. He has a song where one of the lyrics is life is not the mountaintops, it's the walking in between and I. It's like, and I like you walking next to me and it's like that idea that, like all, a lot of people in their faith have these like mountaintop moments where they feel like really on fire for God and then. But what it becomes about is like those in between day to day. We talk about this a lot on this podcast.
Speaker 2:I feel like, but it's because it's so true and it's because I feel like we can't say it enough, that it's like it's about that, like it's not just saying it, it's doing it, and it's not just like hearing someone talk about it in church on a sunday, it's practicing it on monday and um I think being really prayerful about like and I'm always prayerful, I I try to be prayerful.
Speaker 3:It's just like where is God calling you next? Yeah, because I think you know we are all called to work here at Hope and to make a difference and make a ministry here, but we are also called to other places and people who are listening to this are. God is calling us and there's a very defined place. So just continuing to pray, God, where do you want me next to be?
Speaker 4:How can you use me, not just the way you want me, but how can you use me?
Speaker 2:No, I think that's so important because, like, like, we're talking about our stories as, like, this is where we felt like God called us to in this moment. But all, all of us, like all people in a church community, are all being called to different places in this moment and none of those are more like value, like valuable or valid than others. Like yeah or holy, thank you, yeah, like, right, like, so it's really, if you're listening, right Like, the question for the day is is where do you feel God inviting you to Like? Do you feel God inviting you to? Like? What is? Where is the invitation from God? Where's the next place God is calling you to? And don't be just like, don't be dissuaded that it feels like I. I often find that if it feels like a place that doesn't make sense, that's probably where God is calling you to.
Speaker 3:If you're out of your depth that's exactly what he wants you to be Exactly. Like if it feels weird and terrifying or like doesn't make you want to do it on your own, then that's 100% probably the next place, and I think, too, if you're still struggling to find that place where you're being called to know that there are people here, there are people in your life that are pouring into you or that want to pour into you, and those are people to have with you.
Speaker 3:If you are unsure and you want to talk to one of us, you can link our email address in the show notes and we would be happy to have that conversation of where is God calling you? Because there are hundreds and hundreds of places and we're not talking about even just at Hope. We're talking about in this world, where we know God is wanting to make more of a difference through us being his hands and feet.
Speaker 4:I think the most amazing thing about church is that, yeah, I get to work there, but we all are called to church work, yes, and each of us have an individual spot where God has placed us. I love Acts talks about how God has designed you for this specific time, and this specific moment talks about how God has designed you for this specific time and this specific moment. So you have a ministry, a mission field, at your job, in your family, on your kid's soccer team. You have this mission field that I can't reach because this weird bearded guy with no kids showing up. It's not a good look. And so God has placed you in all these different places where you get to be the extension of the church.
Speaker 2:We're just home base. The real work is outside.
Speaker 4:And so each of us are called to be that church, and I just want to encourage people too.
Speaker 2:We talk about all this a lot in church. Right, where is God leading you? You know, and, and it can part of it. I think something's so important to remember is like a lot of times it is like a slow and steady pace in that direction, towards god.
Speaker 2:Not every single thing is an instant change or it makes an instant difference. For example, like jason, like working with students, like there might be a student that you interact with 30 times before. Like they text you back, you know, or I don't know, like accurate, like but in all of our lives. Like you might say hi to your, the person who fixes your coffee at wawa, a thousand times before they you walk in and they say, oh hey, ashley, how are you doing today? And then that's the moment where you make a new relationship with that person. You know, like, I think that it can feel easy to give up if we feel like we're not making an immediate difference, because we hear a lot like we're here to make a difference and it's like but, but making a difference takes time it's gradual, yeah, and if you're chipping away, yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, that's what I and that's one of the things I love about scripture. Like when read scripture, I'm so reminded of the stories in the Bible happen over like hundreds of years and generations of families, when, when there's a story of Jesus and they, like I think it's in Matthew when they list out, like his entire lineage right it's like, like this is like hundreds of years and people to get to this place and and we just get to be a part of it.
Speaker 2:Do you guys have anything else you'd want to encourage, how you'd want to encourage people today?
Speaker 4:Going along with what Ashley said being a gradual change. As someone who's working student ministry 6th to 12th grade it's one of the things I've had to learn is gradual change. And one of the coolest gifts that a student can give to me but I think you guys would all agree with this is one of the biggest gifts is someone that walks up and says hey, I feel like God is calling me, but I'm not sure. Can I just bounce ideas off of you? And it's crazy when a seventh grade student says seventh grade boy says that, hey, I feel like God is calling me, but I'm not sure what to do, and so I never promised that I have some deep answers or anything like that but what I love is as a community is we can come together and we can bounce ideas off together and we can figure out what is that mission field and how has God gifted you?
Speaker 4:And that's the gift that the church is for all of us by being in this community where we can get together and we can be a resource for each other. Like I love this idea. I may have stolen it from Star Wars, but the rule of two. The rule of two is who's pouring into you and who are you pouring into.
Speaker 4:So I think, one of the things we can consider this week is how is God calling you? And if you need help, reach out to us here at Hope, or reach out to someone that you know is investing in you spiritually, and hopefully we can bounce ideas around and we can look like how has God wired you uniquely to invest? And one of the things that drew me into youth ministry wasn't the fact that I was working in a ministry of 100 students. The youth pastor that I was working for said I don't need you to invest in 100 students. I need you to invest in those five that are against the wall, that don't do anything. He's like that's what you're good at.
Speaker 4:And all of a sudden my whole world opened up when I realized oh, my ministry can be just a two or three. Yeah, life changing yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would almost encourage people based on what you were saying, jason. I think a really good practice would be to like take a piece of paper or open up your phone, however you want, and like write down like people that you can think of who are making a difference in your life, like who are pouring into you, who pouring into you, who are encouraging you, who you could go to and say here's what I'm trying to figure out, what God wants for me next, and then, like make that list and then make another list of like who could you pour into in the next month?
Speaker 2:And it doesn't mean yeah, there you go Right, but it doesn't mean we're not looking for like a long list, right? Not like 30 people, right? Like come up with like two or three people and then, like, start practicing those people that you feel like are pouring into you.
Speaker 4:Don't be afraid to go to them and be like just look for those moments where god is giving you these moments and they it could be 15 minutes, it could be five minutes but you're investing. You're just making investments. Yeah, over time, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2:so thank you guys for having this conversation with us today. You know, sometimes I think it's just great to have this medium to just talk about how to be the church which, like, we can say a thousand times, but I don't think it ever stops mattering to say it. So, um, yeah. So, thank you guys for being here. We will link, uh, everyone's email in the podcast notes, um, and this will be episode 101. We had our hundredth episode last week, which is very exciting, um, so if you missed it, you can go back and listen to our 100th episode. And, as always, if this episode meant something to you, please share it with somebody, please send it to a friend, and you can like us and follow us and rate us on Apple, and all those things are really helpful. So until next time. We hope that you have a really great day.
Speaker 1:Thanks for being a part of the Hope Community as we continue our conversations about faith and hope. If you don't already, please join us for worship on Sundays or on demand. You can learn more at meethopeorg or find us on socials at meethopechurch.