"Racism in America is like dust in the air. It seems invisible — even if you’re choking on it — until you let the sun in,” writes Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. “As long as we keep shining that light, we have a chance of cleaning it wherever it lands.”
This week, Betty Joynes and Lori Chewkanes, Members of HOPE's Lead Team and HOPE's Racial Justice Team, join with Pastor Rick Court in a conversation about the sin of racism. We talk about how we can recognize it in ourselves and in our world, and what we can do to actively pursue being anti-racists with our lives. This episode is part 1 of 2 so make sure to check back in next week to hear the second part of this conversation.
NOTES & RESOURCES:
Contact HOPE's Racial Justice Team:
Betty - joynesbejo@gmail.com
Lori - mwcllc12@gmail.com
Watch, learn, read and pursue anti-racism. Find resources on our website at meethope.org/endracism.
HOPE's Racial Justice Team's Guiding Principle: Truth & justice for all God’s People through the love & example of Jesus.
Scripture from Episode:
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another. John 13: 34-35
Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. Ephesians 4:25
Thanks for being a part of the HOPE community as we continue conversations about faith and hope! You can learn more at meethope.org or find us on socials @meethopechurch. Join in for worship on Sundays at meethope.live! Have a question? Contact us at podcast@meethope.org.
"Racism in America is like dust in the air. It seems invisible — even if you’re choking on it — until you let the sun in,” writes Kareem Abdul-Jabbar. “As long as we keep shining that light, we have a chance of cleaning it wherever it lands.”
This week, Betty Joynes and Lori Chewkanes, Members of HOPE's Lead Team and HOPE's Racial Justice Team, join with Pastor Rick Court in a conversation about the sin of racism. We talk about how we can recognize it in ourselves and in our world, and what we can do to actively pursue being anti-racists with our lives. This episode is part 1 of 2 so make sure to check back in next week to hear the second part of this conversation.
NOTES & RESOURCES:
Contact HOPE's Racial Justice Team:
Betty - joynesbejo@gmail.com
Lori - mwcllc12@gmail.com
Watch, learn, read and pursue anti-racism. Find resources on our website at meethope.org/endracism.
HOPE's Racial Justice Team's Guiding Principle: Truth & justice for all God’s People through the love & example of Jesus.
Scripture from Episode:
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another. John 13: 34-35
Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. Ephesians 4:25
Thanks for being a part of the HOPE community as we continue conversations about faith and hope! You can learn more at meethope.org or find us on socials @meethopechurch. Join in for worship on Sundays at meethope.live! Have a question? Contact us at podcast@meethope.org.
Speaker 1:
Welcome to the Meet Hope podcast, where we have conversations about faith and hope. Hope is one church made of people living out their faith through two expressions in person and online. We believe a hybrid faith experience can lead to a growing influence in our community and our world for the sake of others. Welcome to Hope.
Speaker 2:
Hello everyone, Welcome to another episode of the Meet Hope podcast. My name is Rick and I'm excited to be here today with Lori Chicanes and Betty Joins. Welcome.
Speaker 3:
Hey, Rick.
Speaker 2:
Hey, good to have you with us. Hey, what I'm most excited about today is this is going to be a very special and important episode, but we're going to have a courageous conversation about race and racism, and this is so important that we're going to dedicate two episodes to this. So I want to encourage you, if you're listening now, to be sure and listen next week when we conclude this conversation, or at least conclude the podcast portion of this conversation. And so, lori and Betty, as a way of introduction, why don't you both share your name and then share how long you've attended Hope and how did you come to Hope for the first time?
Speaker 4:
So I'm Lori Chicanes and I came to Hope for the very first time, 30 some years ago. The very first meeting.
Speaker 2:
So you came, the very first service.
Speaker 4:
Signal Hill Elementary.
Speaker 2:
School Terrific Okay.
Speaker 4:
And I came because I had a telephone old-timey telephone on the wall in my kitchen.
Speaker 2:
There were some of the listeners.
Speaker 4:
There used to be phones on walls in homes, okay, and it rang and the person introduced themselves and said do you have a church home? And I didn't. You know, I had stopped attending when I was in college, and so this was many years later and I came to the very first meeting, and it was at an elementary school. And then Hope graduated to the high school, and then we built our own church.
Speaker 2:
And so just such a simple question, right? Do you have a home church? Led to now more than three decades of you attending here.
Speaker 4:
Yeah, it's been fantastic, that's great.
Speaker 2:
All right, and Betty.
Speaker 3:
I'm Betty Joines. I've been a member of Hope for about eight years. My son and daughter-in-law were members and invited me to a Good Friday experience. I came, I thought it was wonderful and now I'm volunteering for Good Friday Experiences and I'm just happy to be at Hope. It's a very good church and wonderful people.
Speaker 2:
So both of you came because of an invitation.
Speaker 3:
Yes, yes.
Speaker 2:
That's great, isn't that? I love that. I love when people when that's their story. Yeah, I mean, I love the stories of people driving by and seeing our sign, but I love even more of the stories when it's because someone invited someone to attend and so I know you guys are. This is Podcast. World is pretty new to you.
Speaker 3:
Yes, right, it's the first podcast.
Speaker 4:
First time yes.
Speaker 2:
And so why are? Why are we doing a podcast together? Why don't you give a little background on how you ended up here in the podcast room?
Speaker 4:
with Ashley and.
Speaker 1:
I.
Speaker 4:
Well, betty and I have been serving on Hope's lead team for a number of years and lead team has been studying and learning about the extent of racism in America. For the past couple of years it's been led by our racial justice team here at Hope, and so we've done a lot of reading and we've watched documentaries, we've spent time listening to the stories and experiences of black Americans, we've all done some self reflection and we've engaged in honest and hard conversations sometimes about race in America. So now we're at the point of moving our plans out into the community of faith and this is why we're here. This is where all of our listeners come into the picture.
Speaker 2:
Yeah and so, and did you share what led to this study? Did you show those reasons?
Speaker 4:
So a number of things the murder of George Floyd, an unarmed black man, by a white police officer in May of 2020.
Speaker 4:
I think most of us in America oh yeah, we all know where we were when we saw that To see that video, that vividness of a murder right before your eyes, and then to realize that Mr Floyd was just one in a long line of similar murders. And also, hope is a diverse community, but we're predominantly a white community of faith, and so we knew we had a lot to learn about this topic. And at the same time we were exploring this hope, along with a lot of other, all of the other United Methodist churches was issued a challenge by the UMC. We were asked what are you doing to end the sin of racism? And that is a profound question. What are we doing? So we, along with other United Methodist churches, have embarked on what we're calling the journey of hope.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, and so there was this challenge issued by the United Methodist church to end the sin of racism. But even greater than that reason is and it's really, I would suggest, is a mandate that Jesus gave. This isn't our idea, right? This isn't something that we came up with. This isn't even something that the United Methodist church came up with. There is a response to these current events that we can do, and the response is really a response that Jesus gives us. So, betty, I think you're gonna read that to us, right? It's from John, chapter 13. Oh, I'm sorry, lori's gonna read. How are you now? Okay, yeah, lori now, that's okay.
Speaker 4:
So John, chapter 13, verses 34 to 35, jesus gives us a new commandment. A new commandment I give to you that you love one another even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. But by this, all men will know that you are my disciples if you have love for one another. So this is a Jesus thing, it's a disciple of Jesus thing, and we're called to it.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, that we're called to love others the same way that Jesus loves me and Jesus loves you. And, betty, I knew you were gonna read a scripture and now you're gonna read a scripture right.
Speaker 1:
Sorry about that.
Speaker 2:
Yes, yes.
Speaker 3:
Yes, so our guiding principle is the truth and justice for all God's people, through the love and example of Jesus. In Ephesians 4.25, it says therefore, each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, we're all members of one body, that kind of guiding principle, the idea that we're all connected, right, that they're the. So when one person is harmed, we're all harmed. When one person is honored, we're all honored, yeah, and so we also have a goal, though, for this podcast. Right, we know, this isn't this is only one podcast, but we do have a goal for this, and so Betty wants to share that with us.
Speaker 3:
Okay, well, first let me ask you to consider this question In what ways can we as individuals, that is, ourselves, our families, our friends, as a church and as part of a greater community, do something about the sin of racism? So in our discussion we're gonna be referring to people of color as black and to Caucasian people as white.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, yes, yeah, because. And what? Why is that?
Speaker 3:
Well, there often is a personal preference as to whether we use African American or black. Sometimes the preference may be generational, but we've chosen to use black because it's currently the term in use in life in general, research and Academia and and Betty, why don't you share?
Speaker 2:
so you are a black woman and you prefer the term black. Yes and why and so, but that's different than your younger family members.
Speaker 3:
Yes, that's correct. Because, Jenna and that's why we say generational, because when I was growing up black female in Birmingham, alabama, we were used to the term colored, and so in the 60s, when that term was now Basically rejected and black became the term and black is beautiful you may remember that we were so excited to think of ourselves as not only being black but black and beautiful. So in my generation I've held on to that idea and so I prefer being called black. But the younger people, who probably did not experience what we did in the 60s and before or are now, accustomed to African American because it identifies you know your origin that we are originally African people and so they prefer African American, and so my younger my, my children, grandchildren, tend to Refer to themselves in that way.
Speaker 2:
Okay, yeah, but for for this podcast we'll be using the term black.
Speaker 3:
Yes, we will, and white, yes, yeah.
Speaker 2:
Yes, and so let's also talk about systemic racism. So for those who may not know what that is, or let's just give a formal definition of systemic racism.
Speaker 3:
Okay, well, systemic racism is a form of racism that is embedded in the laws, regulations, practices or attitudes of a society or an organization, which can limit an Individual or groups right to opportunities and what might be an example of systemic racism.
Speaker 4:
Well, I think one example, Rick, would be laws and practices that developed just as African Americans, just as black individuals were, were starting to move up from the south and move into the north and, you know, during that time, laws were put into effect that prohibited them from living in otherwise white neighborhoods the nicer neighborhoods and Religious actually, you know discouraged people from selling to black Americans and restrictive Covenants were put into deeds developers. You know, we're we're not allowed to sell houses to black people. Black soldiers came back from war and were not entitled to VA or FHA loans, and the result today is that blacks live in Often less desirable neighborhoods and they've lost generational wealth because they were not able to become homeowners.
Speaker 3:
So it literally is about a system that was created and even continues in some ways to keep black people from the same rights, privileges and those kinds of things that white people make exactly, and you may be familiar with Redlining or mapping, and so that became a system where, by zip codes, the banks would know where you lived and could determine whether to give you a loan and, most often, to deny you alone For a house. And even middle-class Americans who could likely afford to have a home Were turned down because of that mapping system. Once they found your location and that you were black, then you would likely be denied alone to even have a home, and that's what why we saw coming into effect a lot of high-rise right, okay, yes Homes and what we refer to in some cases as ghettos, because in those properties, that's what's where most of black people lived at the time.
Speaker 2:
And so these systems are still in place, or if the system is in place, the results of the system are still in place.
Speaker 3:
Still in place, yes, so that's systemic racism.
Speaker 2:
We're also going to talk about the term racist, and so why don't you share? Let's give a little definition of what that is.
Speaker 3:
Okay, so a racist is one who supports a racist policy through his or her actions or in actions or expressing a racist idea, such as black people are inferior.
Speaker 2:
And then also that we're also going to look at the term racism, anti-racism and anti-racist, and I think this is really important, this piece, I think a lot of people would say well, I'm not a racist, so this isn't my problem. Right, yes, but so? But what is anti-racism and anti-racist?
Speaker 3:
Okay, anti-racism is a policy or practice of opposing racism and promoting racial equality, and anti-racist is someone who is supporting an anti-racist policy through their actions or expressing an anti-racist idea.
Speaker 2:
Yes, so it's about opposition, it's about promotion and it's about support of anti-racist policies.
Speaker 3:
Yes. So anti-racism begins with accepting and admitting your own racism and being self-aware. Racism is a reality. We can't and shouldn't ignore it. We're not born racist. We learn to become racist. So if you can learn something, you can also unlearn it.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, you know and I wouldn't have time, but I could I would share with you that there were moments in my growing up where I remember hearing things and that adults were sharing and thinking I don't think that's right, but being a child, not responding or also going, is that how it works? And I just and I was learning things about racism and I was unaware. Yes, I'm not excusing that, I'm just saying it's interesting how that happened. So it's not enough to be not a racist, we have to become anti-racist. Is what you're challenging us, right?
Speaker 3:
Yes, and also there's a term called passive racist or anti-racist and that term really is not really a term, because you can't be passive. Yes, anti-racist requires an action, yes, so that's what you have to think about what am I doing, what am I saying? And if you hear something and I know that that may not necessarily be easy for many, because you may say to yourself if I say something, what will happen to me? How will people respond to me because of my response? But the question is also what will happen to them and them meaning black people or people of color if I don't say something? Right?
Speaker 2:
I mean, really, that's the story of the Good Samaritan, right? Yes, the Good Samaritan didn't question what would happen to me, he questioned what will happen to this person if I don't.
Speaker 3:
Yes.
Speaker 2:
Yes, so, laura, you have. I love this quote. This is it's one of those things I'm going to. I have quotes on my wall in my office and it's one that I plan on adding to my wall, but why don't you share that with us?
Speaker 4:
Well, this is a personal definition from NBA champion Karim Abdul-Jabbar, and he defined racism in this way Racism in America is like dust in the air. It seems invisible, even if you're choking on it, until you let the sun in and then you see, you know it's everywhere. So I think that's our challenge is to let the sun in as we talk, listen and interact in having some courageous conversations about race in America.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, because, as followers of Jesus, it's it's a mandate from Jesus very discussed, and as followers, though, we need to be on our guard because it's it's. It's easy, if we're not careful, that we can believe or buy into labels. We can buy into names or the descriptions from the media, we can buy into labels that our parents may have given or friends have shared, especially when we use broad strokes, such as when we hear they are bad. So it's always about who are the they. That is bad, or then are, and they are dangerous. They are evil. They need to be feared, because what we see in a mirror is not the totality of who. We are right, right, yes, and we're multifaceted and multidimensional, and all of who we are is not apparent. All of who we are is not apparent on the surface. So why don't you guys let's do this why don't you tell us something about you that we wouldn't know just by looking at you? Who's going first?
Speaker 4:
Oh, we're trying to decide All right. All right, I'll go first. I'll go first. So I am absolutely addicted to murder mysteries.
Speaker 4:
I can watch hours of them every evening. It's ridiculous. My husband and I just work our way through them. I think it started years ago watching the pro series and now we'll just watch anything. We have so many streaming services. I think the other thing is that we love to travel, and so we've been to some fun places like Iceland in February or up at Lake Louise in Canada in the middle of January, and we, you know, since retirement, we just any chance we get, we hit the road. And probably another thing is that I really do love working with children.
Speaker 4:
I only lasted five years in teaching officially and then went on to a life as a lawyer, but now, in retirement, we volunteer with a grouping, camden Urban Mission Fellowship with their elementary school kids, and it is a joy. It truly is.
Speaker 2:
You are multifaceted and multi-dimensional. And Betty, how about you?
Speaker 3:
Well, I have five grandchildren and I love to dance, so I dance with them. I listen to their music. I always want to know who's singing, who's the author, and they are willing to share and they laugh. We have lots of fun together, so that's one of my favorite things. Also, I am a Star Trek fan. I'm a Trekki. I have been from the original Star Trek, saw the very first one and, of course, since then, throughout, you know next generation Discovery, all the movies?
Speaker 2:
Oh, you know them all. You watch all the series, right.
Speaker 3:
Yes, I do?
Speaker 2:
And how about even the latest Bacaric and the latest yes and?
Speaker 3:
I particularly think that the younger people who were being the originals did a fabulous job, you know, in that movie. So anyway, I just wanted to put that out there that I am a Star Trek fan, that's awesome. Yes, and also just in terms of my profession, I am a registered dietitian nutritionist. I've been a professor for almost 50 years and so I've taught nutrition. I've also been a nutrition consultant with the Head Start program for almost 15 years. I also did long-term care in nursing homes the nutritionists for a number of those places as well, and so but one of my, the thing that's next to my heart is that I am the granddaughter of a Baptist minister. You know, a little bit strict along the way, and as I shared with my friends when we were in high school.
Speaker 3:
The parties didn't start until after 10, but we had to be home by 10. So we always miss the parties, and my mother was very strict about that. So, anyway, that's how I was brought up. You know I have a heart, you know to serve and you know I just I love doing things for others. I guess that's one of the gifts that God has given me, and so those are some of the things that describe who I am.
Speaker 2:
So you're multifaceted and you're multi-dimensional right Because we are. We are rarely who we're more than what people see on the outside right, yes. Yes, and we're people are rarely the image that we have of them as well right, there's always so much more to a person that we have stories and we have past that shape us and our beliefs.
Speaker 2:
So we're going to wrap up this episode, but we want to wrap it up kind of with a what can we do, Like what can we do now? So we're planning to do another episode next week and we're going to have some additional action, steps to follow up and those things. So in the meantime, what can we do now?
Speaker 4:
And Laurie I think you're going to go first. Okay, so one thing that we can do as Christians is we can be the change that God wants us to be. God calls us to follow Jesus, and once we follow Jesus, we learn from Him, and then we're called to act. And then another thing, I think, is that we can understand that racism is not just an accident or a misunderstanding, or just a small group of bigots that are still hanging around.
Speaker 4:
It's really based on a lie told about who all Africans as a group were to justify enslaving them.
Speaker 4:
We were told that they were less than human, and then that lie has continued well past the civil war and through today, by deliberate steps that have been taken over time, some by local, state or federal governments, by our churches, by our businesses and by people, some fueled by hate, some by fear, perhaps by greed, to keep black people from enjoying the opportunities given to white people, like access to good education, healthcare, homes, jobs, transportation. Freedom is just embedded in who we are as Americans, and we may not even realize that.
Speaker 2:
Yeah, it's systemic and it is.
Speaker 3:
It's not an accident, right, and we can admit and accept that systemic racism exists and give advantages to one race and disadvantages to other races, people of color, ethnicity, creating one is superior and the other as inferior. So we must love one another, use to listen and hear someone's experiences of racism. Sometimes, instead of listening, a person will put their own excuses or interpretations onto something.
Speaker 2:
Yes, the listening is so important, right Is that it's the same thing that we just did before, that there were multifaceted and multidimensional, that we won't learn that about someone unless we take the time to listen.
Speaker 1:
That's so good.
Speaker 2:
So I want to end today's episode with that same quote, lori, that you shared from cream Abdul Jabbar on systemic racism. I just said it really is powerful. Racism in America is like dust in the air. It seems invisible, even if you're choking on it, until you let the sun in, and then you see it everywhere.
Speaker 4:
Yeah. So let's just have the courage, as we move ahead, to let the sunshine it's an everyday choice that we make to allow the sun in as we talk, listen and interact on this topic of racism, and let's continue to ask ourselves until we talk to you again next week what can we do? What can we do to move toward ending the sin of racism in our own lives, in our church and in our part as a part of the greater community, and let's be filled with hope for a better future.
Speaker 2:
So, lori, thanks, betty Thanks. This was fun. I think we successfully accomplished our first podcast together and I want to encourage you listeners. That we'll include is okay. We include your contact info. If someone wants to connect with you guys, they'll be able to do that. They'll find that in the show notes and we look forward to seeing you next week as we do part two of our courageous conversations. Have a great day everyone.
Speaker 3:
You too, thank you.
Speaker 1:
Thanks for being a part of the Hope community as we continue our conversations about faith and hope. If you don't already, please join us for worship on Sundays or on demand. You can learn more at meethopeorg or find us on socials at Meet Hope Church.